What's going to happen in Arizona, and I can't wait....

[anarky]

The immigration law that just passed in Arizona is causing some pretty intense debate. But the problem isn't the illegal immigrants, which most of the folks yelling on the pro side seem to think. Truth is, I'm cool with deporting illegal immigrants.

The problem is going to come up when someone of Mexican descent, who has been here his entire life, and whose parents came here legally, gets pulled over. The cops are required to ask for his proof of citizenship. He's never had to carry it before. And now he's arrested. Sure, it gets cleared up eventually, but he still has to spend time in jail, and maybe he loses his job over it.

Truth is, since it's been almost a week since the law passed, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Or maybe it has, and things just haven't gotten to the "cleared up, and now I'm fucking suing you" stage.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Honestly, I would be hardpressed to prove I was American if you stopped me on the street right this very second. It's not like I carry a card in my wallet that says "Born here, yo. God bless America! Woot!"

If anyone is in a mood to be nostalgic for the Eastern Bloc countries of the Cold War, they can head on down to Arizona!! "Papers please!!"

[Ran]

I haven't read enough about the whole thing to really form an opinion yet. But it seems to me that since the Federal government isn't doing their job with immigration and protecting the border, the state had to do something it felt was a problem.

For what its worth, the supervisor of the construction crew I'm inspecting is of Mexican decent. Granted, even though his grandparents came to the country legally from Mexico, he doesn't speak Spanish. Anyway, he says he doesn't have a problem with the law at all. He has friends in the medical field that say Mexican women sneak across the border, have their children on his tax dollars, then move back to Mexico. He isn't worried about being profiled at all.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I haven't read enough about the whole thing to really form an opinion yet. But it seems to me that since the Federal government isn't doing their job with immigration and protecting the border, the state had to do something it felt was a problem.

And that I agree with, since last time I heard, this was 50 states each with their own governments. Something that wrankles me, are these people from other states saying they are going to file suits against the Arizona govt for its "unconstitutional laws." Excuse me, what? Worry about your own fucking state, douchenozzles.

[anarky]

The problem's going to arise when untrained police officers are suddenly required to check the status of everyone if they have any reason to think they're illegal. And provides a weird loophole, where anyone can sue a law enforcement agency if they suspect the law isn't being enforced properly. It practically requires anyone of Latin American descent (or people like my wife, who's half-Asian, half-white, and is often mistaken for Mexican) to carry ID at all times, which isn't unprecedented in American history, but happened when freed slaves had to carry papers to prove they owned themselves.

Like I said, I'm totally cool with getting the illegal immigrants out of the country (though I think it might be better, given how ingrained the almost-slave labor has become in the economy, to fine them, kick them out, and give them a chance to do it legally), and think the government has done a shit-tacular job of its job of its end of the bargain, so I can honestly see where they're coming from in passing it. Its just, I dunno, like there's a black widow on the wall of an apartment, and they know it's dangerous, and the Democrats and Republicans in Congress are arguing over whether to kill it with a shoe or a bottle of bug spray, and Arizona pulls out a sledgehammer and knocks down the wall.

[vynsane]

The problem's going to arise when untrained police officers are suddenly required to check the status of everyone if they have any reason to think they're illegal. And provides a weird loophole, where anyone can sue a law enforcement agency if they suspect the law isn't being enforced properly. It practically requires anyone of Latin American descent (or people like my wife, who's half-Asian, half-white, and is often mistaken for Mexican) to carry ID at all times, which isn't unprecedented in American history, but happened when freed slaves had to carry papers to prove they owned themselves.

i have a feeling it's only going to be enforceable if someone commits a crime (be it jaywalking, speeding, etc...) and their background check comes up questionable.

Like I said, I'm totally cool with getting the illegal immigrants out of the country (though I think it might be better, given how ingrained the almost-slave labor has become in the economy, to fine them, kick them out, and give them a chance to do it legally)[...]

the fine should be leveled at the people who hire them - it would end pretty fast that way.

[anarky]

Yeah, but what if there's a large group crossing the road at the wrong time, and the cop can only get one? It's not going to be the case for every officer, but there will inevitably be a few who single out the Mexican dude.

Or what if it's something that normally an officer wouldn't actually arrest someone for? Say six kids, let's say they're sixteen, are drinking some beers together. A cop sees them, a cop who normally would make them pour out the rest and go home with a stern warning. But one kid is dark-skinned and has a slight accent. The officer can't send them off with a warning; there's a chance, with that weird bit about suing cops, that anyone could sue him for not checking the Mexican kid's ID. But he can't single out the Mexican kid, because that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. So I guess he has to actually cart all the kids off to jail.

Arizona could've very easily have put more officers on and around the border. The feds have the responsibility to actually secure the border, but there's no reason extra officers can't be around as backup.

Fining the companies is something that should've been in place ages ago. If people come over here for jobs that pay better than the (weekly clod of dirt) pay they get in most Latin American countries, and they're willing to work for less than minimum wage because it's shit-tons more than they'd get otherwise, an awful lot of the fault lies on the companies who've been employing illegal immigrants for ages. If the jobs weren't here, they'd stop (or at least significantly slow down) crossing over.

[kidhuman]

I know most states now a a days offer birth cards, like a SS card with your birth info on it. It might be plausible for Az to start issuing these if they have not for free for the next year and then start charging for them. This way its the proof they need at times of pull overs(not the diapers).

Like anyone else here, I dont have ID stating I was born in the states to prove citizenship, never needed it, but if this is the route they are going to go, they need to provide for the people to avoid all this conflict. If they dont have the ID and there was never any offered to them to avoid, this, the state should be sued by them for not rpoviding for their legal citizens and tax payers. All it is doing now if they get released is wasting tax dollars on some bullshit.

[vynsane]

Yeah, but what if there's a large group crossing the road at the wrong time, and the cop can only get one? It's not going to be the case for every officer, but there will inevitably be a few who single out the Mexican dude.

i've seen an officer stop a group before - no everyone runs away at the drop of a hat.

Or what if it's something that normally an officer wouldn't actually arrest someone for? Say six kids, let's say they're sixteen, are drinking some beers together. A cop sees them, a cop who normally would make them pour out the rest and go home with a stern warning. But one kid is dark-skinned and has a slight accent. The officer can't send them off with a warning; there's a chance, with that weird bit about suing cops, that anyone could sue him for not checking the Mexican kid's ID. But he can't single out the Mexican kid, because that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. So I guess he has to actually cart all the kids off to jail.

once again, you can ticket a bunch of kids all at once. also, i doubt this will increase racial profiling - the cops who already profile will just continue to do so.

additionally, is there any verbiage to the effect of 'just cause'? or is looking mexican sufficient to satisfy that clause?

Arizona could've very easily have put more officers on and around the border. The feds have the responsibility to actually secure the border, but there's no reason extra officers can't be around as backup.

that would just cause more teabaggers to complain about the necessary tax increase.

[anarky]

They're required to check the papers confirming the residency status of anyone they suspect to be an alien, without spelling out any criteria. I have a feeling that the illegal immigrants from Europe probably won't be checked very often, though.

The second example I used was a circumstance where a lot of cops would let them off with a warning. Now, they have to be hard-assed on everything. The paperwork involved with actually ticketing kids for drinking as opposed to stopping them and scaring the shit out of them could be a waste of time if the crime rate in some Arizona cities is as high as they say. Again, theoretical, but, still....

[kidhuman]

Some guy had this as his status on Facebook:

Just so that I understand...You pass THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY you get 12 YRS HARD LABOR, You pass THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY you get SHOT. You pass THE AMERICAN BORDER ILLEGALLY you get A JOB, DRIVER'S LICENSE, ALLOWANCE FOR A PLACE TO LIVE, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT SO YOU CAN READ A DOCUMENT. We carry passports in other countries or we face jail time. REPOST YOU AGREE

[anarky]

Our system is fucked up. We need to stop issuing licenses to illegals. We need to crack down on anyone employing illegals. Welfare should be out (I could possibly see somehow supporting children, who don't have much say in the matter.) Healthcare should be provided for emergencies only, followed by work duty until it's paid off, then deportation.

Because of the number of illegals entrenched in the economy of so many states and industries right now, there should be some way to make at least a portion eligible for citizenship. I'm not crazy about the idea, but you could really see some entire industries (including almost anything to do with food) tank if you take away what amounts to slave labor overnight.

The whole thing about children being citizens if they're born here is outdated. Isn't that from the 14th Amendment over 100 years ago? I doubt anyone expected an influx of illegal immigrants crossing the border and having babies just so they can stay here.

Like I said, I object to the Arizona law only in that it essentially requires some legal residents and citizens to carry proof of their right to be here just because of the color of their skin, which is just wrong. I'd be 100% for it if it were worded differently so that there's no chance of Mexican Americans (legal ones) being singled out, which the revised language still doesn't guarantee particularly well.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Our system is fucked up.
The whole thing about children being citizens if they're born here is outdated. Isn't that from the 14th Amendment over 100 years ago? I doubt anyone expected an influx of illegal immigrants crossing the border and having babies just so they can stay here.

A lot of the system is fucked up. The Founding Fathers never expected the need for term limits because back in the day it was a chore to serve in Congress. You have to leave your family and your home and travel across the country for two or perhaps even six years. The concept of air travel would never have occured to them, and certainly the idea of people spending DECADES in Congress, in their minds, defeated the purpose because you couldn't really represent your constituents if you LIVED in D.C. ALL THE TIME.

Hell, even the manner in which people were nominated and chose to run was completely different. back then, everybody got to gether and decided which of their peers would best be suited to represent them. As Thomas Jefferson noted, Representing your state and nation is a BURDEN, not a REWARD. Nowadays, a person of AMBITION chooses to run, usually with some kind of personal agenda, and then gets people to back him or her and pay for it. Again, not what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Basically buying Senate Seats.

The whole thing is fucked up.

[anarky]

What's really concerning me now is the upswell of anger toward all Hispanics, not just illegal immigrants. I'm noticing an awful lot of folks who seem to be under the assumption that there is no such thing as a legal Mexican-American, never mind that an awful lot of folks of Mexican descent were living in territories that are now most of the western US long before the ancestors of most modern-day white people immigrated here from Europe. I'm not sure if it's scapegoating, but, if this continues, I fear the end result. No one controls who they're born as.

It'd be a hell of a lot easier if everyone spoke English, but there's a reason it's not the national language. From the very beginning, we had people speaking English, French, Dutch, Spanish, and other languages. The first settlement in Virginia that was intended to be permanent, pre-dating Jamestown by several years, was a Spanish settlement. And most of the people who speak Spanish now are descended not from Spanish, but from various native tribes. The Spanish were just slightly more effective than the English at completely subjugating entire nations at a time.

[anarky]

So, first they pass a law that, under the initial wording, requires law enforcement to ask the immigration status of anyone they encounter who might be illegal, and allows any random Joe to sue the law enforcement agencies if they suspect the law isn't being enforced. When criticized, the governor adds a little addendum making it illegal to racially profile in the application of the law, even though it's pretty difficult to see how it can be enforced without racially profiling unless they ask every single person for proof of citizenship, which would be okay.

Then they pass a law outlawing classes teaching about minority culture or history from the viewpoint of minorities. Using the argument that they're racist and anti-government, even though they're open to anyone and probably do much more good in getting minorities in poorer areas to actually be interested in school.

And now they're sending inspectors into schools to ensure that teachers do not speak with an accent. In Arizona? As in right along the border with Mexico, former Spanish territory, huge Latin American population?

Christ, no joke, I'm expecting the next step will be for the state to forcibly kick out anyone of Mexican ancestry, legal or not, and declare war on Mexico. There's a point where it goes well beyond any believable argument of securing the borders and gets to territory where it's really tough to argue it's not full-on racism.