Top 300 - Feb 2008
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
I didn't know about the Punisher thing. There are so many ways they should be getting the word out.
Trouble is, both Marvel and DC--who will always be the Big Two--exist now as subsidiaries of huge conglomerates, and I think that they're both more interested in the big moneymakers (films and videogames) than comics.
And both have EICs who are idiots. One guy lets every book be a month late, even if he's drawing it himself. The other orders the death of any character he's ever disliked even slightly.
Trouble is, both Marvel and DC--who will always be the Big Two--exist now as subsidiaries of huge conglomerates, and I think that they're both more interested in the big moneymakers (films and videogames) than comics.
And both have EICs who are idiots. One guy lets every book be a month late, even if he's drawing it himself. The other orders the death of any character he's ever disliked even slightly.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
the first-ever FCBD coincided not so coincidentally with the opening weekend for the first spider-man film.anarky wrote:I didn't know about the Punisher thing. There are so many ways they should be getting the word out.
while i know DC is a small, SMALL part of the mega corp WB, i don't know if that's true about marvel - i know they're "owned" by the Marvel Entertainment Inc. corporation, and are publicly traded, but i don't think there's anything else above that pulling the strings...Trouble is, both Marvel and DC--who will always be the Big Two--exist now as subsidiaries of huge conglomerates, and I think that they're both more interested in the big moneymakers (films and videogames) than comics.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
True, Vyn, but it's almost a guaranty that the comic portion of the empire is bringing in a smaller percentage of the overall revenue than ever before. The toys do well because the the movies are doing great, which is because the characters are great.... and the only reason that's the case is because of the COMICS. It just seems to me like they put out comics because they have to - it's apparent that the love for the media just isn't there at the top anymore. No one's up there saying "Holy fuck, Joe - that's a TERRIBLE idea!", they're just letting him have full reign over it - and he's pretty much a Bendis yes-man like McCallum was for Lucas.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
most likely, but only because movies are a much bigger draw. it's why they make movies of novels - because they can make more money with the same story in a different medium.jjreason wrote:True, Vyn, but it's almost a guaranty that the comic portion of the empire is bringing in a smaller percentage of the overall revenue than ever before.
this is less of a point to bring up now more than ever before, since toybiz is no longer and hasbro has the license. there must be some sort of profit-sharing going on because marvel can't simply be settling for the licensing costs, but it's not like all the money is going into marvel or marvel-owned subsidiaries/sister corporations.The toys do well
i don't know if that's true, there's a LOT of good stuff coming out right now. just because the higher-ups don't have the love doesn't mean they aren't hiring people that have it in spades by accident.It just seems to me like they put out comics because they have to - it's apparent that the love for the media just isn't there at the top anymore.
true, most likely the only thing the shareholders are saying is "holy fuck joe, that's not making any money! make it make more money!"[/quote]No one's up there saying "Holy fuck, Joe - that's a TERRIBLE idea!",
i don't think there's any WAY to compare bendis to mccallum. bendis is the man. mccallum is a fuckin' mollusk. he's taken the weird, contorted over-blown crapfest that was civil war and made something believable and interesting out of his little corner of the marvel U in new avengers - a book i would've totally shit-canned because of the art if it weren't for his words, btw. to take two of the least influential characters in all of marveldom and make them the warm, creamery center of everything is BALLS, and it TOTALLY paid off. to me, it's like everything that's happened in the marvel U in the past 6 years (from "alias" to "the pulse" to "secret war" to "new avengers" to "civil war" to "secret invasion") has been the story of luke cage and jessica jones and how they deal with all these enormous things happening around them as they try to form some semblance of family and it's fucking great.and he's pretty much a Bendis yes-man like McCallum was for Lucas.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
No, I'm comparing Bendis to Lucas - JoeQ's the McCallum letting him do whatever he wants, regardless.
There are good comics coming out right now - I fucking LOVE New Avengers & Daredevil - but the problem doesn't get solved. No new readers are getting on board, they're only making comics for us.
There are good comics coming out right now - I fucking LOVE New Avengers & Daredevil - but the problem doesn't get solved. No new readers are getting on board, they're only making comics for us.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
ah. i get it now. i was confused.jjreason wrote:No, I'm comparing Bendis to Lucas - JoeQ's the McCallum letting him do whatever he wants, regardless.
agreed, the industry is obviously in dire straits. the demise of the ongoing is the solution. seriously. sin city and hellboy have it right - a series of mini series is INFINITELY more inviting than a title that has 60 years worth of back-story. sure, the 10th mini is going to have a lot of history behind the character, but the way you go about a mini-series is different than the way you go about a story arc in an ongoing - you consciously have the fact that you need to make it accessible to new readers in the back of your mind during the creation process in a way that for some reason you wouldn't in writing a history-laden flagship title.There are good comics coming out right now - I fucking LOVE New Avengers & Daredevil - but the problem doesn't get solved. No new readers are getting on board, they're only making comics for us.
minis are also ripe for TPB-ization in a less hackneyed way than a story arc that's artificially padded out an extra issue to fit the printing necessity tends to feel.
the (ongoing) comic is dead. long live the (mini-series) comic.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
What the fuck happened? Take Marvel for example - did the universe just get too big and hard to manage? The push for market share forced too many (shitty) books onto the shelves and people got SICK of collecting bad comics?
I think things got too mature when it appeared that this was the type of book that was going to achieve great critical and commercial success (and yes, I love Dark Knight and the grittier side... but why does this have to be the status quo? What made it great was being a departure from the norm...). Somewhere they lost track of what they SHOULD be trying to accomplish: giving KIDS something great to read so they'll fucking READ something!!!!
Sorry, I'm all disjointed and disorganized.... but it's an emotional topic. I can't read a (new) comic to my son without a billion questions, so what do I do? I go find a Marvel Team-Up, or if I'm at my folks a Peter Porker from my brother's shit.
Limited series can be awesome, but the format is so overdone these days with all the filler shit from the hero books that isn't fit for the main rags... you really have to pick and choose carefully. I've pretty much given up on all the Marvel ones, X-Men first and foremost.
I think things got too mature when it appeared that this was the type of book that was going to achieve great critical and commercial success (and yes, I love Dark Knight and the grittier side... but why does this have to be the status quo? What made it great was being a departure from the norm...). Somewhere they lost track of what they SHOULD be trying to accomplish: giving KIDS something great to read so they'll fucking READ something!!!!
Sorry, I'm all disjointed and disorganized.... but it's an emotional topic. I can't read a (new) comic to my son without a billion questions, so what do I do? I go find a Marvel Team-Up, or if I'm at my folks a Peter Porker from my brother's shit.
Limited series can be awesome, but the format is so overdone these days with all the filler shit from the hero books that isn't fit for the main rags... you really have to pick and choose carefully. I've pretty much given up on all the Marvel ones, X-Men first and foremost.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
the mini, done right, is the next iteration of the ongoing comic. currently BPRD, the spinoff series from hellboy, has about 50 issues that are nearly consecutive, but are all collated into story arcs of mini series'. instead of issue 43 being part 1 of a 6 part story arc, it's issue 1 of a 6 issue mini series.
but yeah, the short short version is that after 50-60 years there's just way too much history that the long-term fan(boy)s lord over as if it's their solemn duty, which is why it's a huge uproar when the powers that be try to change something (a la OMD/BND) before they can even definitively say it was bad or good. that elitist fanboy mentality coupled with the inaccessible nature of the books resulting from it really just scare potential new readers away.
but yeah, the short short version is that after 50-60 years there's just way too much history that the long-term fan(boy)s lord over as if it's their solemn duty, which is why it's a huge uproar when the powers that be try to change something (a la OMD/BND) before they can even definitively say it was bad or good. that elitist fanboy mentality coupled with the inaccessible nature of the books resulting from it really just scare potential new readers away.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
This comics mess is all the 1990's fault.
Most of us got into comics like X-Men or Spidey when there was probably at least 25 years of history there. That is a big chunk of backstory to learn for anyone.
And that was before there were 70 different titles for each. Before the 90's rolled around there were maybe 3 main X-books (Uncanny, X-Factor and New Mutants) and 2-3 main Spider titles? By the time the 90's were done a team's/character's history had more doubled during the decade.
Most of us got into comics like X-Men or Spidey when there was probably at least 25 years of history there. That is a big chunk of backstory to learn for anyone.
And that was before there were 70 different titles for each. Before the 90's rolled around there were maybe 3 main X-books (Uncanny, X-Factor and New Mutants) and 2-3 main Spider titles? By the time the 90's were done a team's/character's history had more doubled during the decade.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
The industry has been reacting in a piss-poor fashion since the implosion of the 1990s. For one, they didn't go after the kids they alienated or the adults who got bored with the umpteenth "First issue polybagged spectacular guest starring Wolverine!" stunt. They still haven't. They're focused entirely on the "fanboy." I don't mean that in a bad way. But it's not a strong way to bring readers in.
Fact is, kids still answer the question about their favorite reading material by pointing to comics. And adults don't have to hide in the closet to read them anymore. Go to B&N and you will see people reading the graphic novels.
The reason the monthly is in dire straits right now (I'm not ready to pronounce it dead) is twofold: First, the industry fucked up royally by condensing all mainstream distribution to one company, which didn't have much penetration in bookstores and other "casual" buying outlets. Ten years ago, you could buy fucking Spawn at a gas station. Now, you're lucky to find Archie. These places still carry magazines, but comics fucked themselves out of those stores. Not to say they couldn't get back in. Second, all the emphasis is on reprinting stories in trade format. Great when you have a story that needs five issues. Not so great when a two-parter is stretched to five issues.
Another minor reason, though not to be ignored, is that "deadline" apparently means nothing to anyone anymore.
Fact is, kids still answer the question about their favorite reading material by pointing to comics. And adults don't have to hide in the closet to read them anymore. Go to B&N and you will see people reading the graphic novels.
The reason the monthly is in dire straits right now (I'm not ready to pronounce it dead) is twofold: First, the industry fucked up royally by condensing all mainstream distribution to one company, which didn't have much penetration in bookstores and other "casual" buying outlets. Ten years ago, you could buy fucking Spawn at a gas station. Now, you're lucky to find Archie. These places still carry magazines, but comics fucked themselves out of those stores. Not to say they couldn't get back in. Second, all the emphasis is on reprinting stories in trade format. Great when you have a story that needs five issues. Not so great when a two-parter is stretched to five issues.
Another minor reason, though not to be ignored, is that "deadline" apparently means nothing to anyone anymore.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
Hear. Hear. I'm always reading older issues I find in the cheap bins from the 70s and 80s (and sometimes 60s even) and I get exhausted from how much story there is in ONE issue. Stan and Jack could pack more into the first ten pages, than current writers can get out in the whole issue. It's like they pitch their idea with the "shocking final page" and don't realize they dont have 21 pages of story to get there. Another thing that has gone by the wayside is the prepping secondary story arcs that would permeate the monthlies of yesteryear. Cut away from the action for a page to see somebody skulking in the shadows for four or five issues until BLAM! it was the main story. You can't do that if you are trying to package a future TPB because all the cutaways wouldn't make sense. However it makes PERFECT sense if you are trying to get people coming back month after month.anarky wrote:All the emphasis is on reprinting stories in trade format. Great when you have a story that needs five issues. Not so great when a two-parter is stretched to five issues.
Yeah, they're called monthlies for a reason. Kids'll lose interest in All Star Batman when it only comes out once every six months.Another minor reason, though not to be ignored, is that "deadline" apparently means nothing to anyone anymore.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
TPS should be based on sales - if a book goes red hot, it gets TPB'd - NOT sent to press for 2nd & 3rd print regular books (with new & elusive collector covers). Marvel did away with that for a reason - but it's come back over the past couple of years. Collecting TPB's these days must be about as expensive and frustrating as tracking down the books themselves.... which makes them moot, in my opinion.
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
Devil's Due publishes TPB's that are more collectable than the comics. First prints of the six issues of Snake Eyes: Declassified will set you back $30-$50. The cheapest I've seen the paperback in the last year or so was $80. It was in print for something like a week.
TPB's are a good idea, but it really undermines sales of the monthly if everyone knows the paperback will be out the month after the last issue of a story. Remember when you had to buy the monthlies because, in many cases, you didn't know if there'd be a paperback or not, and, if there was, it would be a year or more down the road? Not to mention that a $15 paperback of five $1 issues isn't the bargain that a $15 paperback of six $3 issues is.
I've been doing a lot of analysis on this stuff lately, and it's really quite disturbing how defeatist and insulated the industry is. Like the whole "videogames are killing comics" argument. (I don't think I've brought that up here yet, and am too lazy to check.) Videogames are no more or less popular with kids and teens than they were fifteen years ago. You know why they sell more now? Because the players who were kids and teens fifteen years ago are adults, meaning that now you not only have large numbers of adults who play, but you have parents who sympathize with their kids when it comes to wanting a $50 game.
Remember how books were "dying" a few years ago, and everyone was scared shitless. Two words: Harry Potter. Books ain't going nowhere, and comics won't be going nowhere, either, if the industry as a whole doesn't sit there like retards and let them become a thing of the past. (Sadly, it looks like the major players are quite willing to let that happen.)
TPB's are a good idea, but it really undermines sales of the monthly if everyone knows the paperback will be out the month after the last issue of a story. Remember when you had to buy the monthlies because, in many cases, you didn't know if there'd be a paperback or not, and, if there was, it would be a year or more down the road? Not to mention that a $15 paperback of five $1 issues isn't the bargain that a $15 paperback of six $3 issues is.
I've been doing a lot of analysis on this stuff lately, and it's really quite disturbing how defeatist and insulated the industry is. Like the whole "videogames are killing comics" argument. (I don't think I've brought that up here yet, and am too lazy to check.) Videogames are no more or less popular with kids and teens than they were fifteen years ago. You know why they sell more now? Because the players who were kids and teens fifteen years ago are adults, meaning that now you not only have large numbers of adults who play, but you have parents who sympathize with their kids when it comes to wanting a $50 game.
Remember how books were "dying" a few years ago, and everyone was scared shitless. Two words: Harry Potter. Books ain't going nowhere, and comics won't be going nowhere, either, if the industry as a whole doesn't sit there like retards and let them become a thing of the past. (Sadly, it looks like the major players are quite willing to let that happen.)
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Re: Top 300 - Feb 2008
There's a very similar discussion going on right now at newsarama. It can be found here, but I haven't thrown my two cents in. I probably won't. I'm not even registered there, and don't see much of a need to.
It's amazing how insular that the comic book industry allows itself to be. One distributor, who makes insane demands of publishers and retailers? No penetration into mainstream stores? Seeing manga as a competitor rather than a form filling the void they left when they abandoned most stores? An industry that prides itself on diversity and maturity, but is made up of stores that are practically warehouses for Marvel and DC?
Or "the general public doesn't want superheroes" argument. Fucking bull shit. The next time a good movie like Spider-Man comes out and grosses less than one gazillion dollars, use that argument then. It boggles my mind to no end that the industry can brag about books like Ghost World or Maus and how they're accessible to anyone, then deny the accessibility of what, for most comics fans, was the entry point.
I really love the "kids just don't want superheroes anymore" shtick. Turn on Cartoon Network or Toon Disney or NickToons almost any time of the day. What do you see? If you're lucky, maybe you'll see Dexter's Lab or Pinky and the Brain. More likely, you'll see a shitty, derivative, corporate cartoon that can't be called anything but a third rate superhero show. Again, filling the void. If kids could easily read about Batman or Superman or Spider-Man, they wouldn't need Ben 10 or Power Rangers or whatever. These are the same guys who only do their figure shopping at 7 AM when kids are in school, then bitch when Hasbro tells them that kids actually do buy toys. (The only people I ever see in toy aisles are kids and parents. Interestingly, the majority of people I see browsing graphic novels are also kids. I wonder if they'd be browsing through comics if B&N still carried them.)
The single best comment: "I also don't think as many kids read these days unfortunately (unless it's Harry Potter)." Way to disprove your own argument. How dumb is it to say that kids don't read (a fucking old-ass, tired argument from the 50s), then point out the single biggest selling book of all time aside from the Bible, when it's common knowledge that kids read most of the copies made (and sometimes two or three kids per copy)?
It's amazing how insular that the comic book industry allows itself to be. One distributor, who makes insane demands of publishers and retailers? No penetration into mainstream stores? Seeing manga as a competitor rather than a form filling the void they left when they abandoned most stores? An industry that prides itself on diversity and maturity, but is made up of stores that are practically warehouses for Marvel and DC?
Or "the general public doesn't want superheroes" argument. Fucking bull shit. The next time a good movie like Spider-Man comes out and grosses less than one gazillion dollars, use that argument then. It boggles my mind to no end that the industry can brag about books like Ghost World or Maus and how they're accessible to anyone, then deny the accessibility of what, for most comics fans, was the entry point.
I really love the "kids just don't want superheroes anymore" shtick. Turn on Cartoon Network or Toon Disney or NickToons almost any time of the day. What do you see? If you're lucky, maybe you'll see Dexter's Lab or Pinky and the Brain. More likely, you'll see a shitty, derivative, corporate cartoon that can't be called anything but a third rate superhero show. Again, filling the void. If kids could easily read about Batman or Superman or Spider-Man, they wouldn't need Ben 10 or Power Rangers or whatever. These are the same guys who only do their figure shopping at 7 AM when kids are in school, then bitch when Hasbro tells them that kids actually do buy toys. (The only people I ever see in toy aisles are kids and parents. Interestingly, the majority of people I see browsing graphic novels are also kids. I wonder if they'd be browsing through comics if B&N still carried them.)
The single best comment: "I also don't think as many kids read these days unfortunately (unless it's Harry Potter)." Way to disprove your own argument. How dumb is it to say that kids don't read (a fucking old-ass, tired argument from the 50s), then point out the single biggest selling book of all time aside from the Bible, when it's common knowledge that kids read most of the copies made (and sometimes two or three kids per copy)?
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